Over the past several months there has been alot of outrage coming from our christian and mormon neighbors over the GSA and the DoS event.
Many fundamentalist christians, like Hutch, bring a very narrow and cherry picked set of 'biblical laws' they use to persecute the gay community. Most christians that I know don't seem so hell bent on the validity of the OT. (pun intended)
These christians find greater value in living their lives as Jesus taught, rather than honoring outdated dogma that they find un-christian. These are great folks!
I, as many others, were a bit mystified by the strong reaction of our mormon neighbors so we set out to learn a bit more about mormanism and where their doctrine intersects with their christian counterparts. What we found was interesting to say the least.
Mormon doctrine is quite different from the mainstream christian perspective. The doctrine seems a bit more supernatural than even the events in the bible, and definitely diverges from the basic christian beliefs. In fact, many of the assertions would be considered heretical by the catholic church.
In trying to find a short documentary on the subject, we came across an animated feature that was supposedly banned by the mormon church. The claims made in the video were actually checked against published mormon doctrine and seem accurate.
Warning, some of these ideas might shock you!
Now this is not an attack on mormons, but it's good to know where you folks are coming from.
What is unclear is the value the Bible holds within the Mormon church. Is the OT considered the word of God?
I'd love to hear the mormon perspective here. Are the claims in this video accurate? Is it true that mormons strive to be gods? Is it really a belief that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers? And the whole business with the black folks, what's up with that? When I think about it, I can't say that I have ever met a black or asian mormon, do they exist?
I think most of us who were raised as christians have no clue about the mormon faith. To many of us it sounds a bit like scientology.
Perhaps a greater understanding could lead to a more open dialog about the diversity of faiths within our school and community. In the end, we are all equally human and no one can deny that, the rest is just superfluous!
A local student, claiming to be Mormon sent this link. It is interesting.
36 comments:
"Strange"? "Goofy"? I thank you for the link, but not the editorializing. This stuff is hardly stranger than the idea of Moses parting the Red Sea or a worldwide flood in historical times or a talking snake. It's not "more supernatural" either. There are not levels of supernatural; that's like saying "more ultimate." When it was founded, Mormonism was relatively progressive in trying to incorporate science to the extent Joseph Smith understood it. The problem with all dogma that purports to be for all time, is that it's necessarily a reflection _of_ its time. Only science reorders its cosmological view in the face of new understanding, but then science is not religion.
Religion exists to express ultimate truths and connect us to the divine. (Whether these concepts have any meaning is a matter of debate.) Calling one religion's trappings "goofy" as opposed to another's isn't quite fair. And even if it is fair, it isn't polite. (By the way, I got this talk from my dad when I said the same thing about Mormonism, and I've come to believe he was right.)
I see you changed the article and deleted the word "goofy." Good move. I give you my blessing to delete my first comment.
I thought the synonym would be more to your liking.
"Is it true that Mormons strive to be gods?"
Yes. The scriptures say that we can become like God and have everything that he has. This would include the power to create.
"Is the OT considered the word of God?"
Big time. I'm often shocked at how little my Protestant peers know about the OT. It's rich with information for our day. We spend nearly ¼ of our study time on it, in fact.
"Is it really a belief that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers?"
Yes, because everyone is related in spirit through God the Father. He did not create Lucifer to be evil, he just turned out that way, as some kids seem to on Earth as well.
A black man was one of the first to receive the priesthood, however he was asked to not use it and it was not give to anyone else of African descent (if the man was black but from the middle east or something, he could still have it). It was always expected that God would eventually allow it and eventually he did.
There are people of many different races in the church. Many Africans join the church and there are temples there as well. There are plenty of Asian-Americans that are LDS, but in Asia there are many communist countries (that don't allow the church) and countries with strong non-Christian faiths so sometimes it's more difficult for them to understand. One thing to keep in mind is that over 50% of members of the LDS church live outside of the United States.
As to what religion it is most like, I and many others would consider ourselves most like those of the Jewish faith (though they often disagree).
Fascinating, absolutely fascinating.
Yes. The scriptures say that we can become like God and have everything that he has. This would include the power to create.
You say "like god". I assume you are referring to Elohim (sp). But he is one of many gods, is there a head god? You know like Elohim's great great grandfather or something?
How and when did the Universe come into existence and what if any causation was responsible?
I have SO MANY questions I don't know where to start.
I was taught the holy spirit(tm) visited Mary and there was no sex involved. Do scriptures infer actual copulation took place between Mary and Elohim?
The bible also differs on the many wives of Jesus, of which it infers he had none? How is this resolved in doctrine?
And getting back to the black thing. Scripture says that Adam and Eve started it all, yet 1/3rd of the "neutral" spirits were slotted to be black spirits. Where do the Asian spirits come in?
Was there a finite number of these spirits? Is it a one to one ratio or are additional spirits spawned as required? And if so, who is spawning them?
What is the realm of the other gods, I guess the brothers of Elohim? Do they exist in the same plane as Elohim and his descendents?
First of all, why on earth should I care what Mormons do or do not believe? I'd be quite pleased if the political activism of the church wasn't intent on informing me of their anti-gay beliefs.
If I were interested in finding our more of what Mormons believe, I'd start with www.mormon.org (hey, lookie-that comes up first in a google search for "mormon")-- the church's official info website. If you wanted a less biased source (gee - think the Mormon church might just be pro-Mormon?) why not try Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon (it's #2 on the same google search), which is an objective source. Why would you treat such an obvous bit of anti-mormon propganda as a jumping off point?
If you ask me, it represents a serious lack of judgement on your part.
So the matter of fact, blunt, here's how it is approach is anti-mormon propoganda?
According to our mormon friend above, this is all true.
Do you object to the format?
It was 1st on the list on You Tube. The other choices all ridiculed the faith or were excessively long.
If you can find a 5-10 minute documentary clip summarizing the faiths beliefs as contrasted to mainstream christian beliefs, please send it my way as I came up empty.
As for your interest in the mormons, all I can say is skip a bit brother. No one is compelling you to read it.
The fact is the Mormon faith has intruded on our secular education system here in the valley and I am curious why and how they justify their condemnations and alliances.
I disagree with their intrusions, but I still respect them as humans and wish to understand what motivates their actions.
“But he is one of many gods, is there a head god? You know like Elohim's great great grandfather or something?”
God the Father, or Elohim is the one we would become like since he would be our only god. There are others of previous and current creating power like our God, but they would not be god to us…I don’t know it I said that in a way that makes sense. We don’t worship the others…just ours.
“How and when did the Universe come into existence and what if any causation was responsible?”
We don’t know so we don’t really speculate. It’s one of those things that we’ll have to wait to find out in the afterlife. Also, addressing a later question, we don’t know anything about any other gods that aren’t part of our creation (ie. Heavenly Father, Heavenly Mother, and the other two members of the Godhead, or trinity, Christ and the Holy Ghost.
“Do scriptures infer actual copulation took place between Mary and Elohim?”
Even though Jesus is the literal son of both, the spirit just made it happen. There is a common rumor that we believe there was sexual intercourse involved but I don’t know where that comes from.
“The bible also differs on the many wives of Jesus, of which it infers he had none? How is this resolved in doctrine?”
It has not officially resoled. It can be assumed that he must have had a wife to obtain salvation, but we’ll just have to wait and see.
“And getting back to the black thing. Scripture says that Adam and Eve started it all, yet 1/3rd of the "neutral" spirits were slotted to be black spirits. Where do the Asian spirits come in?”
What is your reference for this (Book, chapter, verse). We don’t believe that our races are based on our righteousness in the pre-existence. It’s just genetics, and different tribes and markings.
“Was there a finite number of these spirits?”
Yes, in a way. For our creation, all of the spirits were made at once, however other creations would still be happening and they would still be in the creation process.
If you're not into reading, and youtube is your thing, here are two channels with LDS info:
http://www.youtube.com/ChristopherMillz
http://www.youtube.com/ldsteencenter
There are many more as well, but those can get you started.
We don’t know so we don’t really speculate. It’s one of those things that we’ll have to wait to find out in the afterlife.
So is the story of Genesis accepted as doctrine? What about the other books like the book of jubilee's, is that also accepted in the doctrine? Is the common bible dating accepted in the church?
Thanks for sharing your comments, they are very interesting.
So I watched the video and here are the many problems with it.
1) It goes into a lot of detail about God’s life when we know don’t really know how it works.
2) It assumes that god has more than one wife.
3) The plan includes more than just earth but all of God’s planets. We’re all on one plan with one Savior.
4) The mutual fighters having black skin is bogus.
5) Valiant fighters have been born to people from all countries and all walks of life, not just Mormons.
6) The Book of Mormon reference to the white skin vs the dark skinned peoples in the Americas is completely out of place and has nothing to do with the pre-existance.
7) Is this where the God is Adam myth came from? This is not true. We believe that he is Michael the Arch Angel.
8) God never had sex with Mary…that would make her not a virgin, hence no virgin birth.
9) Nobody knows the status of Jesus’ marriage. Orson Pratt was probably just saying what he thought.
10) Some of the Native Americans are descendants of Israelites, some came over at other times or on the land bridge.
11) Joseph wasn’t a treasure seeker. He worked in a mine for a while. Finding gold was his job. But not for a while after his first vision.
12) The doctrines are more similar to the original church that Jesus set up and reflect the laws of the Old Testament and New.
13) There is no rule against drinking Coke.
14) The judgment is also officiated by apostles and leaders of the tribes of Israel.
15) Nobody expects to be polygamous in the afterlife unless they were on Earth.
16) Joseph Smith didn’t say he had done more for than any other man including Jesus Christ, someone else said he had done more than any other man EXCEPT Jesus Christ.
17) Joseph Smith’s death doesn’t save people, only Jesus’.
18) Why was the man mad his wife divorced him? It wouldn’t have worked out.
19) The church never pressures anyone into divorce. It’s quite the opposite.
So the guy made this video full of lies because he was mad that his kids wouldn’t talk to him? He needs to grow up.
The other LDS person here is doing good in answering the questions, but you cannot insist that the VIDEO is correct after a few questions. It was horrific.
Minor details aside, ie. treasure hunter, etc.
Being a God is a pretty significant deviation from the christian perspective.
As a God, do you have the option of granting free will to your creations as Elohim did?
Seems to me you could make sure your planet doesn't have any homosexuals if you get to make the rules.
Our goal on earth is to become like God. Not gods, ourselves. We inherit the divine perfection of our Heavenly Father through the choices we make by taking Christ's examples into our lives and strive toward that perfection. We will not become a God but we will be with God and live in his presence. Ability to create planets and rule over them is not part of the doctrine.
But what about the following from your doctrines?
Here then is eternal life- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power (Joseph Fielding Smith ed, Teachings of The Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-47).
And how about the Teaching on exaltation by the Twelfth President, Spencer W. Kimball when he says:
"Brethren 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225, 000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000" (The Ensign, Nov. 1975, 80; emphasis added).
And more specifically from the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants 132 18:21
18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.
I am glad you have taken the time to read the scriptures :)
True, it says about "becoming gods" after the resurrection. However, the achieved glory will not exceed our Heavenly Father's. Only He will be worshiped after the resurrection as He is worshiped today, yesterday, and forever.
"Worlds" mentioned here aren't planets. Yes, we will be rulers of "worlds" under Christ's administration. Worlds mentioned aren't a different alien world. Just the same ol earth (new earth after resurrection) of different regions, where Christ will return to rule and the righteous who have inherited the celestial glory will be given different regions to rule over them and set upon the lands ("worlds") toward righteousness.
Also, you might want to check out this commentary by a non-LDS scholar who gave a more accurate interpretation of the Bible regarding this topic. It is quite parallel to the LDS doctrine.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1710844,00.html
To the poster a few above,
One can worship God and Jesus, and still atain "everything he hath." It would defeat the point of eternal progression, otherwise.
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints my suggestion is, if you have all these questions, meet with Missionaries from the church and sit down and speak with them. I'm not saying you shouldn't ask your online peers about their beliefs but sometimes it really helps to speak with a missionary.
People are going to lie, or deny the truth, or be mistaken and believe in something else. That's just part of being a sinner. If you have a problem with Mormanism, or Christianity, read the Book of Morman and the Holy Bible for yourselves. Relying on humans alone isn't gonna get you anywhere.
So you folks think you are going to become Gods?
And you find that to be rational?
I assume you find evolution to be a bunch of balderdash as it contradicts your creation beliefs.
Is this accurate?
I don't think to attain "everything he hath" means that we are also worthy of being worshiped by others whether or not they have achieved the celestial glory.
We pray to the God, the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ.
To become like our Heavenly Father is not as easy as to snap everything to existence according to our immediate will. God does even not do that (although he could). For example in Genesis 2:8 you can see that God planted the Garden of Eden instead of just SNAP!, but He must have gone through a process. Another example in Gen. 1:28 where he blessed Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply." He did not just SNAP and populate the Earth with six billion people. He wants to see us progress here on Earth because He loves us and He really wants us to return to Him someday.
Evolution does not contradict what we believe. Very few people actually understand evolution and the theory of evolution. One of my professors (who is nonreligious) admit to not understand it completely. You can observe evolution of other living things today. But no one human being has ever observed the human evolution happening.
I agree with the previous poster. Talk to a missionary. They would love to have a discussion with you. Bonus- you'll get a free Book of Mormon ;)
Adam and Eve and Genesis are directly contradicted by physical evidence that adhere to the laws of nature.
Adam and Eve did not exist and were not the parents of all humanity. This is simply a false belief. Almost every field in science supports the IMPOSSIBILITY of such a wild claim.
I didn't see any comments referencing that video. You are obviously just trying to make trouble by posting two anti-Mormon videos in one post.
Here are better videos:
http://www.youtube.com/FAQMormon
And for the best information for beginners or people who don't know much about the church:
www.mormon.org
www.lds.org
It was sent to our e-mail ANONYMOUSLY, not posted.
Is any part of this false?
I just wanted to say one thing about how we believe that we can become Gods. This belief is not one that is unheard of in other mainstream Christians churches. It is just one of the more obscure beliefs. For example, the Catholic Church believes that people can obtain the status of Godhood. They call this belief "Theosis." Google it and see what you find. This concept is not exclusive to the LDS church and there is quite a lot of literature about it.
Please try to do some research and double-check facts before asserting something as truth.
You show me where in the BIBLE it says anything about man becoming God or God like!
I'm sure many people have spoken of theosis, catholics included, but where is it mentioned in doctrine?
I'll tell you, nowhere!
Your doctrine is quite clear on the matter.
So I wrote this up, but can't post it. Could you do that? Thanks.
I guess you just have to go over the basics of deep theology.
First: We know nothing about the abscence or existence of the Father's family, or lack thereof. He may have brothers, He may not. We don't know.
Two: The word Elohim is actually the Hebrew word for God used in Genesis. If they have a problem with that, they have a problem with Him choosing Hebrew to be the language His prophets first revealed the works that would become the OT, not with "Mormonism" (note the abscence of an A in mormon). And not only is it Hebrew, but it is actually plural. The word Elohim, as used by the Father in Genesis actually means "Gods".
Three: We can become gods. What does that mean? Well the part of the D&C quoted explains it perfectly. To be a god is to be "greater than the angels". We shall be like the Faher, but still worshippers and obeyers of His will. In essence to believe we can become like gods is to believe that we can, through Christ's love and Atonement, become exactly like Christ is. Greater than the angels, indeed all powerful, and we become that way not in spite of obeidience to God, but we are made that way by Him eternally because of obedience to Him. We are all "trying to be like Jesus" and take the words of the scriptures literally when David and Christ both declare "Ye are gods, the sons of god." in the Old and New Testament.
Four: The Universe was created by The Son at the command of The Father. They took unorganized and chaotic matter and made it organized and ordered it into the Universe. We do not believe the Universe was made "ex nhilio" or out of nothing. This is not to say He couldn't have done it, but simply that He didn't. That teaching is found nowhere in the scriptures and is in fact a Catholic teaching that the Protestants hung on to after breaking away.
Five: The Church, like the Bible, has no position on the marriage status of Christ, whether single or married. It is simply never mentioned. There have been indiviual leaders of the Church, just as their are indiviual Protestants out there(I know I have met more than one) that believed He may have been married. But it was never taught as doctrine.
Six: Race. Again, the teaching on the 1/3 reserved for blacks is not doctrine. It may have been held as a personal belief of some person out there, but it was never taught as doctrine or taught as a belief of the Church. Indeed this sounds like the confusing of the doctrine on the fall of Lucifer and taking 1/3 of the hosts of heaven with him as presented in Revelation. This doesn't disqualify us as Christians just as the belief among white preachers in the 1800s that blacks were not humans but wer ein fact smarter than average apes or that white people were better than all other races because of the bumps on their skulls. Matter of fat the LDS Church's big problem was that as an organization it was anti-slavery and taught that black people were human sons and daughters of God. That was one of the big reasons we were driven from Missouri; we were abolitionists in a slave state.
No one knows the actual number of the spirit children the Father has.
Seven: Now as to this video. Its bogus. They did exactly what Satan does. The makers of this video took a few kernels of truth, just enough to make you pay attention, then filled the rest up with nothing but outright lies and misinfromation. They did t on purpose, and it is disgusting. And the fact that you still insist on listening to it even though you have ACTUAL mormons here trying to explain to you what we believe says something about you.
I always suspected that you Mormons were crazy, but your detailed writings here have removed all doubt. You folks are insane!
It saddens me that so many chose to embrace mythology while the beautiful truthes of nature and the Universe are right in front of any eyes willing to see.
You will not become a God, because there are not a bunch of different gods running different Universes.
And you have never commented on your subjugation of women in your church. Not that any explanation will justifiy how women are treated in your church, but you seem to be skirting that question.
My advice for you christians and mormons...Try REALITY. Not only is reality or more incredible than your myths, but reality has the added bonus of being TRUE!
I agree, and I understand you right there. I still think the Mormons are crazy. And I have always thought Mormons were crazy. Never tried to understand them. First time I met with the missionaries, I thought they were nuts. God and Christ have flesh and bones... rejected the Trinity Doctrine... I thought they were all bogus. Came home, decided that I take the missionaries challenge to read the Book of Mormon. For fun. So next time I see them, I'd have something to debate over and win it. So I did read the Book of Mormon. I thought, there was nothing special or outstanding about the contents of Book of Mormon, to be honest. But the experience reading it, it gave me the chills. It was scary. Took me a long time to realize why people want to join the church. But something hit me right there that all this church ever stands for is truthfulness. I know the Spirit has testified me of it and now I know that the church is true. It's not about becoming gods or ruling other planets that stand for the church. It's the fullness and truthfulness of the doctrine it holds. It's the grand plan of God that we, as his literal children need to become like him. Our spirits are already of God. We were spiritually begotten of him anyway. That has already made us gods (as sons and daughters of god). But to return to him, to overcome death, and to be glorified and perfected in Christ, and to be in his presence- that is the goal to become the "gods" as other posters have been talking about. One will never become "The God" because there will only be ONE god to be worshiped, that is the Heavenly Father. Crazy, I know. But I know that all this stuff not just another religious b/s- it's all true. I can tell you, that Mormons are indeed the craziest people I've ever met. Some just drive you insane. Really enjoy to be around these crazy bunch. Gotta love 'em too!
And oh, that cartoon is stupid. Doesn't even represent what Mormons belief. Want to know what Mormons REALLY believe? Talk to the missionaries. They'll tell you all the BS you need to know about the Mormons without an anti-Mormon opinion. Do they try to convert you? NO. They don't pressure you to join the church. Their goal is to correct the misunderstandings people have over the church. Answer your questions. That's all. You will be taken to the how to join the church discussion only when you tell them that you want to.
To the person that commented on how women are treated in the church... please, since you are an expert on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, explain to me how women are mistreated in any way? I am confused as I am a woman in my church and have yet to be mistread in any way shape or form.
Are you referring to the fact that we do not hold the priethood? I assure you that is not by any means being mistreated. I suggest you read these articles:
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=6fc947f765adb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e1fa5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=8b817befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1
The first article is BY a woman, the second is about women and the priesthood. IF you can not understand the beauty of what women are in the church that's your flaw not ours. We do live in reality, I live a very real life... I go to work every single day and went to college just like any other person. When you have taken the time to research our religion from more than just one angle then you can make an informed decision, however as it stands it sounds like you know nothing other than what you've been told or read that is anti-mormon... which despite your desperate desire for it to be truth... is not. Because I have beliefs that you don't support doesn't mean you should condemn me for them, just as I have never condemned anyone for their beliefs.
Apparently my links didn't show up right...
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=6fc947f765adb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
Nevermind the links do not show... go to LDS.org and type in women and the priesthood, it will show you a bevy of articles regarding our beliefs on that topic.
Debating over LDS doctrine won't get anyone anywhere. If you are truly intrested, and you want to know about our religion, attend a church meeting, talk to missionaries, listen to our prophet. It isn't about being who is crazy or who can i chastise for their beliefs. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I know with my whole soul that it is the true church of God. I know that I will be blessed if I keep the commandments and coventents he has made with me. I feel so sorry for those who feel like they have to run up to the closest mormon they can find and push all of these acusations on them to only win a moment of satisfaction. Some of the nicest people I know have been righteous members of the LDS church. Isn't it terrible that so many of you just want to push these people aside because they are following what they know to be true?
If you have a sincere intrest, please ask questions, but if you are only here to tease these sweet spirits, why bother?
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