Dear Mount Si Parents,
Thank you for posting the message from CoDE concerning Snoqualmie Valley School District policy in regards to the upcoming Day of Silence.
This lawyeresque analysis of SVSD policy governing demonstrations must have been written by a CoDE member who either is not a parent of a Mount Si High School student, or if s/he is a parent, then either did not bother to discuss the matter with her/his child or, if such a discussion did occur, completely missed the element of high school culture to which the Day of Silence truly belongs.
The Day of Silence is not a demonstration, but an act of solidarity. If any parallels are to be drawn between the Day of Silence and other school activities, they properly belong among those, for instance, held during Spirit Week and on other special occasions. For those readers unfamiliar with our school’s culture, a brief explanation of Spirit Week will suffice, followed by an example of another type of activity that sometimes takes place at Mount Si.
Each day leading up to the homecoming game in October is filled with activities designed to rally school spirit. Monday, for example, is p.j. day – yep, students and staff alike are encouraged to wear their pajamas to school. Are they required to? No. Are signs about p.j. day posted around school so students can know what’s happening and when? Yes. Everyone knows this is a voluntary activity, the purpose of which is simply to declare your school spirit.
The days following p.j. day are assigned any number of themes by student organizers and the week usually ends with class color day – freshmen wear white, sophomores red, juniors grey and seniors black or camo colors. Is everyone required to wear their colors? Again, no. The choice about participating is left to each individual: you may abstain entirely; participate only in those activities with which you feel comfortable; or go whole-hog and vie to outdo everybody else in an outlandish show of school spirit. And, what is school spirit, but a show of solidarity with past, present and future generations of Mount Si students.
Let’s now take a look at another example of school solidarity from the opposite end of the emotional spectrum.
Two years ago, MSHS student Tess Sollitto drowned in the Snoqualmie River shortly before the start of the school year. Some of her classmates decided to help raise funds for a scholarship in her honor and did so by selling plastic pink wristbands (pink being Tess’s favorite color). Were students and staff required to purchase these wristbands? No, of course not. Those who did, however, did so to contribute monetarily to the scholarship fund, but also – and perhaps more importantly – as a show of caring and support for Tess’s family and friends who had suffered a terribly tragic loss.
Were people who did not purchase and/or wear one of these wristbands regarded by those who did as uncompassionate or heartless? Of course not. The absence of a pink band meant nothing – there was no judgment cast, no ostracism, no ill will. At the same time no one at the school did anything to oppose this solidarity activity. Had a student, for instance, worn a t-shirt ridiculing the pink wristbands or made mean spirited remarks to one of Tess’s friends, few would have had much sympathy if the provocative act elicited harsh words or even a slap.
Solidarity – this is what the Day of Silence is all about – like wearing a red-white-and-blue necktie on the 4th of July or a Mariners cap to Safeco Field. Participation in acts of solidarity are completely voluntary and always welcome; non-participation doesn’t usually register on anybody’s radar screen; and oppositional participation, depending on the degree of hostility, is either ignored or responded to (preferably in a constructive manner).
The oppositional activity of CoDE to the Day of Silence is, simply put, heartless and hostile – heartless toward those gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered students who fear being open about who they are, and hostile toward those GLBT students and their friends who simply want to make MSHS a safe and supportive place for each and every student.
I have much faith in the goodness of people, and sincerely hope that CoDE will support the Gay/Straight Alliance and use its influence to help make the Day of Silence at Mount Si on April 25th a day of goodwill between participants and non-participants alike.
In solidarity,
Elaine Harger
9 April 2008
43 comments:
Very nicely put, Elaine!
The claim is ‘Gays are bullied’, but there is precious few examples of the feigned persecution, certainly nothing systemic worthy of such extreme unrelenting remedy. We have endured this never ending, in your face pressure to see this abhorrent behavior as normative, but not just normal, but acceptable and not just acceptable but worthy of promotion . There are clubs and rallies and parades and press releases and days of protest and unnecessary gratuitous injection of gay gay gay in a large majority of movies. Enough!
Those of us who do not want this constant brainwash object to our public schools being used as surrogate soldiers in a long siege on the morality of our people. If there was obvious goodness in this lifestyle, it might be harder to object, but the demonstrated badness of this lifestyle begs a stern rejection and demands the airing of the true facts; that homosexuals are 10 times more likely to molest your child or youth; that if your youth practices homosexuality, he/she is 4 times more likely to commit suicide and that remains true even in European societies that overtly embrace this lifestyle (so much for the bullying argument), that promiscuity is rampant in this lifestyle and is primarily responsible for the plague of AIDS.
It matters not whether the tendency is innate or learned. Men may naturally be attracted to many women, but it is judged bad for society and bad for the individuals to pursue such passions and so we shun that behavior. This day of silence is nothing more than another tactic in the unrelenting assault on our collective common sense. I reject that homosexuality should be promoted as either normative or alternative. I say speak out now against the being silent. Concider the arguments at http://peoplespassions.org/peoplesvoice/essays/Top_Homosexuality_and_the_Society.htm
To "Peoplesvoice"
Where does a person begin to object to everything you said? Lawrence King's family would certainly take issue with your claim that there are "precious few examples of the feigned persecution" of gays...and all of your other claims are SO FAR off base that it I think it would be futile to even enter into a reasonable discussion, although I'm sure that there are many who may try.
What I mostly read from your hysterical claims are all of the reasons the Day of Silence was first held and must continue to be held.
I believe you’ve done the opposite of what you had hoped to do: I’m sure there are many people who had concerns about the value of the Day of Silence yesterday, who today would prefer to support this event, rather than be lumped into a category with you.
My problem with CoDE is they post a list of "incidents" that are so vaguely described, with so few identifying details that one is simply asked to take their word for it. However, the least bit of research shows that CoDE has an honestly problem and completely lacks credibility.
Example, the FAQ section of their website has this to say about thier position of the DoS:
"Why does CoDE want to "get rid of" the Day of Silence?
CoDE has never suggested that the Day of Silence be eliminated, but that it should be held at a designated place and time, such as before or after school, as required by school district policy."
Yet a few seconds using google reveals the following:
"Thank you for your balanced reporting about the proposed Day of Silence activity at Mount Si High School. It's great to see action being taken to try to put an end to this clearly divisive and disruptive event. " - Sandy Juenke CoDE Secretary
"I hope that the Day of Silence is ended at Mt Si. However well intended, we simply don’t need activities and events that drive wedges between the students."
Jon Pulsipher - CoDE board member.
Both these statements, which clearly show a desire to END not alter DoS can be found in comments to the first news article on the group (http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19315706&BRD=965&PAG=461&dept_id=141396&rfi=8)
I also received the following in an email exhange with a media seeking CoDE board member:
" All students deserve to have a school experience without prejudice and without harassment. Among other things, this means there should be no Day of Silence at Mount Si."
If CoDE is going to be this dishonest about this their signature issue, why on earth would anyone take their word for it on any of the other alleged incidents described on their website?
Dear Cindys,
The earth is big enough that you are guaranteed to find a few sad "King" incidences of any kind of bad behavior you want against any group. Is there systemic persecution here at Mt Si worth all this hubbub? I don't think so - I have, however, seen conservative youth, including my own son, persecuted by a few bad-apple teachers. Is it systemic worthy of broad remedy? I did not demand broad remedy at the time, but I am now persuaded that CODE is right that the liberal persecution and constant pressure had reached the point where systemic remedy is demanded.
The second key point I tried to make was that remedy is generally though appropriate for a systemic problem against a benign group, but the facts are against this. A great many of people caught up in these abhorrent lifestyles want to end their lives and that is true even in very gay friendly promoting European countries. They are 10 times as likely as a "straight" to end up molesting the next generation of children. They started and perpetuate the global HIV epidemic. Don't bother arguing that philandering heterosexuals are now "helping" perpetuate the problem - 2 wrongs do not make a right - Remember your kindergarten lessons?
Even if some few Homosexuals claim some innate propensity toward that lifestyle, for the sake of the individual and society it should be discouraged. 10% of the population is claimed to have a genetic propensity for alcoholism. Should we encourage and accept drinking and drunkenness for these individuals? Some men desire to have intimate relations with more than one woman – should society legalize and thus sanction forms of polygamy and accept adultery as natural and therefore acceptable?
Should a particular individual be persecuted - of course not, but neither should we have school sponsored coming out parties! Should we have coming out clubs and rallies for American Indians becoming alcoholic just because some one claims they have a genetic propensity for addiction? Come on folks - get some common sense!
A person struggling with same sex attraction needs our loving sincere help not the equivalent of a bottle of scotch.
PS CODE and I separate ways in that they just want the politics out and reading, Math in, whereas I believe we must explain why the school should not be acquiescing to this greasing the skids for the homosexual lifestyle.
In regards to past transgressions against gay students at Mount Si I offer the following link. If you come with an open mind this fine piece of journalism makes it very clear that Mount Si is a very hostile environment for anyone questioning their sexual identity. There has been much talk of tolerance, how about practicing what is preached and easing the path for youth trying to find
their way?
It is a news story aired on KUOW on April 14, 2007.
http://kuow.org/defaultProgram.asp?ID=12638
with all due respect, peoplesvoice,
i noticed that you cited some bad studies. that claim about gays molesting children comes from a man named paul cameron.
amongst other things, cameron made up a story about a gay man mutilating a child in a bathroom. He told this lie in order to help repeal an anti-discrimination ordinance.
Since that time, he has been rebuked, censured or dismissed from groups like the American Psychological Assocation and the American Sociological Association.
and the vague reference about European culture accepting gays, but gays are still "dangerous" do not come from legitimate sources. They are either anecdotes or convenience sample studies distorted by the religious right.
Amen, PeoplesVoice. Amen. Too bad others are not capable of basic thinking skills and instead are insistent on making up this overblown mirage that Mount Si is an incubator of anti-gay sentiment.
In response to the offensive comments of 'peoplesvoice', here is the voice of the State of Washington. I suggest you come to terms with this because were you, or your children, to express in the context of your employment the attitudes you have expressed here it would be grounds for legal action.
"On January 31, 2006, Washington Governor Christine Gregoire signed House Bill 2661 prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation. The new law amends the Washington Law Against Discrimination to include sexual orientation in the categories of protected individuals under that law and defines sexual orientation as "heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, and gender expression or identity." The WLAD already prohibited discrimination based on race, creed, color, national origin, families with children, sex, marital status, age, the presence of any sensory, mental, or physical disability and the use of a trained dog guide or service animal by a disabled person.
Under the new law, an employer may not: (1) refuse to hire a person; (2) discharge or bar a person from a job; (3) discriminate in compensation or other terms or conditions of employment; or (4) print, circulate, or use any discriminatory statement, advertisement, publication, job application form, or make any inquiry in connection with prospective employment that is discriminatory on the basis of an individual's sexual orientation."
from: http://www.jacksonlewis.com/legalupdates/article.cfm?aid=893
It speaks well of our public schools that they seek to educate our children about laws against discrimination and how to create a civil society.
Respectfully,
Mark Joselyn
Having an open mind does not include dumping my brains out on the floor as one Anonymous writer would have. His “fine piece of journalism” had exactly one example of a Mt Si youth getting shoved. Oh dear. Now that is sad something like the daily fair I suffered as a short white geek under “tender hand” of the minorities in my high school. GET SOME SKIN!
Clever trick Anonymous, but there are 76 professional sources sited in just one of my articles and I know of no reference that sites this anecdotal Cameron fellow. I site sources like Journal of American Medical; Journal of Homosexuality, We are not talking about some one individual or some boohoo story of being called, dare I say it, “gay”. These are large studies from the FBI to a host of professional peer reviewed journals that are discussing statistical deviant behaviors in Gay identifying populations– not feelings. See for yourselves at: (remove spaces)
http://peoplespassions.org/
peoplesvoice/essays/
Homosexuality_and_Child_
Sexual_Abuse.htm
As for Mark Joselyn’s veiled threats about getting fired; This just shows the viciousness of the left. Classic liberal fascism to try to squelch debate based on personal intimidation. Mark and his ilk already had there way in Scandinavia and even in Canada where Preachers are now sitting in Jail for reading from their Bibles in the own churches about the evils of the homosexuality. That’s really what you want , isn’t it Mark? You cant wait to see your facism applied everywhere including at Mt Si. You cannot argue from the facts so you attack and threaten the individual. Mark and his liberal thought police want to hide the truth that just as a registered sex offender living next door has a higher chance of attacking a child, so are the statistics undeniable that those who give themselves over to practicing homosexuality are about 10 time more likely than the next guy to molest a child or youth. The gay life is dangerous for the individual and the community. Wickedness never was happiness. There is no getting around that.
However there is hope and change. There is real hope for individuals caught in the trap of homosexuality. They can come out of that dark closet to a heathy heterosexual or celibate life. There is achievable lasting joy on the other side of that dark cloud.
(remove spaces in links)
http://peoplespassions.org/
peoplesvoice/essays/ex.htm
Dear Mr. Marquis:
Have you read the article posted on your site in their entirety? In particular the Tremblay article? The article your page links to contains an eloquent argument as to wxactly why the Day of Silence and clubs such as the GSA are of great value to our school society and culture.
To wit:It has often been reported (and verified by myself as I do my educational work) that most mental health professionals have not been educated about human sexuality in general, and homosexuality in particular. Studies confirm this, and a summary paper on the subject emphasized that "[e]ducation for mental health professionals on gay and lesbian topics is desperately needed."(52:242) Worse than this, however, are the common reports that heterosexism and homophobia continues to be a significant factor in the education of mental health professionals, including family therapists who are "still not getting the training they need to equip them for [dealing with GLB clients, as well as families who have GLB offspring]."(53:8) Predictably, the operating belief in this neglect has been that GLB people do not exist, as also made apparent in most suicidological discourses. Not long ago, most mental health professionals also believed that GLB people should not exist and acted accordingly, as manifested by their (professional?) mandate to 'cure' gay and lesbian people.
And: Two studies carried out by CTYS18 reveal that GLB youth sheltered in the youth residence system, and those seeking services in drug and alcohol abuse treatment programs (two youth group at high risk for having suicide problems), are often faced with worse than simply not receiving appropriate services. They are usually in highly homophobic and homohating environments, tacitly approved by those entrusted to help youth with problems; and many GLB youth are therefore being harmed in places where help should be available to them(54,55). Both studies also emphasized that professionals in both fields were not educated about GLB youth, nor trained to effectively help those having problems. CTYS has not yet produced a study reporting what happens to suicidal GLB youth when they access available services, but similar results are expected.
Generally, professionals in suicide prevention/intervention appear to have been content ignoring the existence of GLB people in general, and GLB youth in particular: a deadly situation.19 Given that GLB youth are at a very high risk for having suicide problems, this response can only exacerbate their problem. In attempting to understand and effectively address a serious social problem, such as the worsening youth suicide and suicide attempt problem,20 nothing is more counterproductive than ignoring a human group over-represented in the problem, ignoring their special needs, and only making inappropriate services available which may actually harm them and even worsen the problem. What should suicidologists do with respect to this reality?
And: With respect to GLB youth being at high risk for drug and/or alcohol abuse, their homosexual desires and identity, combined with being negatively affected by socially induced self-hatred (internalized homophobia), may all factor into their substance abuse problem(55-58) in a way that "being heterosexual" never would. The situation is described by Shiflin & Solis(1992).
"Before proceeding to a discussion of treatment we would like to briefly describe the issues that underlie the gay youth's use of chemicals. As many authors have stated, the development of a homosexual or gay identity occurs in the context of stigma (Martin 1982[59]; Troiden, 1989[60]). Prior to adolescence, the gay and lesbian adolescent has a 'sense of being different' from his or her peers (Minton and McDonald, 1984[61]). As homosexual impulses emerge, the youth begins to associate these previous feeling of being different with sexuality (Troiden, 1989[60]). As children, homosexual youth have been exposed to the homophobia of the larger culture. During adolescence they realize that these feelings place them in a devalued group (Hetrick and Martin, 1987[62]). This stigmatization role produces hiding and isolation, maladaptive sexual patterns and attempts to change one's orientation (Hetrick and Martin, 1987[62]; Martin, 1982[59]; Troiden, 1989[60]). Thus alcohol and drug usage for the lesbian and gay youth is multifunctional; it medicates the anxiety caused by the need to conceal one's identity; helps to discharge sexual impulses more comfortably; decreases the depression and dissonance that is generated by the adolescent's discovery of his or her sexual identity; acts as an antidote to the pain of exclusion, ridicule and rejection of the family and peer group; provides a feeling of power and self-worth to counteract the youth's sense of being devalued; and offers a sense of identity, wholeness and a soothing that is missing in his or her daily experience. (56:68-69)]
For GLB youth with substance abuse problems, intervention efforts which fail to recognize their homosexual orientation, and therefore fail to help them effectively cope with factors underlying their many problems (the symptoms), will generally fail to help these youth overcome their substance abuse problem(s)(55). Such problems may also be aggravated because the failure will sometimes convince these youth that no one in the world is available to help them.
Similarly, suicidal GLB youth will not be helped by intervention efforts which do not address their many predictable problems linked to their sexual orientation. To help them will therefore require identifying them as GLB youth. The problem here, however, is the identification when they are suicidal because they don't want to be gay, and especially when they have attempted suicide because they would rather be dead than be gay or lesbian. When they are not ready to accept this fact about themselves, and they have opted for death instead, they will certainly not be prepared to acknowledge this aspect of themselves to others, including mental health professionals. Often enough, youth who have acknowledged they are gay or lesbian, but are struggling with this inner reality, and have attempted suicide, will also often not reveal their homosexual orientation to therapists(28,37). Commonly, these youth do not want to experience the anticipated disapproval of therapists as such responses will aggravate their serious problems.
It is therefore important that all mental health professionals working with youth should be gay/lesbian-affirmative, educated about GLB youth problems and their causes, trained to help these youth understand and cope with their problems, and they should especially be trained in how to access "homosexuality" information from youth since some of their clients will be gay, lesbian, or bisexual. For GLB youth who have attempted suicide, saw a mental health professional, and either omitted or denied their homosexual orientation to them, I have always asked: "Is there a way they could have obtained this information?" The answer has always been "YES".
Suicide prevention efforts which include GLB youth issues can become highly problematic for reasons related to our society's traditional homophobic and homohating nature. In suicide prevention programs directed at youth, targeting "at risk" GLB youth will necessitate speaking positively about their existence, and especially about the many problems they may be experiencing. Such youth will therefore know that someone exists who can understand and maybe help them, and that confidentiality will also prevail. Most GLB youth who are coming to terms with their homosexual orientation are, to various degrees, in the socially created psychological distress described by Martin & Hetrick(1988).
After you have read your own articles - and not cherry picked a few sentences out of them - let's have another discussion, filled with compassion for you, who hold so tightly to your beliefs, and for the students who must struggle with the things you condemn so so vehemently, and must make their way in the world.
Tolerance is not the same as promotion. Let's discuss that too.
Oh peoplesvoice ...talk all you want. As FDR said, "Repetition does not transform a lie into the truth."
Your statements are incorrect; your sources flawed, and we all see through your fear and ignorance.
I would feel sorry for you, but I feel more sadness for the scores of people hurt every day by your ignorance.
May or whoever you are; Don’t be so patronizing. Perhaps you are not used to this level of intellectual honesty in your liberal culture. Just because I post a paper on my site does not mean I agree with every conclusion some researcher writes. A conservative minded friend warned me about dealing with the gay suicide problem as that is THE gay hobby horse or should I say poster child for why they demand more and more remedy.
We take a different conclusion from the same data than you did or the several authors in the Tremblay article. Note: “These males, along with heterosexual males who were sexually abused also form about 90% of the young adult male suicide attempters” Whoa! Does that get your attention at all? You snipe at me about not reading my own posting; I in turn wonder; Are you able to assimilate the data and synthesize your own conclusions or are you beholden to the one drummer in your mental cadence?
I included that article because they did a decent job of presenting the data on the subject even though I would take a very different road as to what to do about that data than the authors. I am willing to debate the conclusions hoping that we might at least find some commonality on the raw data. I hope you can get beyond your own bias to possibly entertain the idea that other conclusions may be still be consistent with the data.
Likewise, just because a heavy influx of homosexuals into the APA have stacked the vote to declassify homosexuality as a mental disorder is not at all persuasive to me. Arguments are persuasive – Using the logical fallacy of “Appeal to Authority” is for mindless sheep.
I am persuaded that there is a social trigger (all too often molestation and or some obsessive family situation) that skids the unfortunate youth in that path. I have stated my dependence on facts to drive my conclusions, but I will admit that I may weight the inputs I received based on my personal experiences. You have patiently born my political conclusions, perhaps you can tolerate a personal story.
You see, the responsibility fell on my shoulders to lead the funeral services of one of my older brothers a few years back. Chris had been a sick child and he missed a great deal of school. After several years, he overcame the acute asthma, but was never the rough and tumble type thereafter that characterized the rest of his brothers, but he had a silver tongue and an amazing ability to organize people. Later on he studied for law. But, he had a pivotal event occur on a youth activity. I was so naive not to see then what is sooo obvious now. The youth leader was some years later caught in the sack with another boy and sent finally to jail, but not in time for my brother. A couple of years later when Chris was 16 another adult at his place of employment saw the opportunity to groom a possible gay recruit and made his sick move. I recall him telling me about this adults suggestive comments, but I was just too dumb to see my brothers cry for help. It was several years later that I was shocked to learn of my brother’s HIV; then when I heard of that man’s arrest, I put the pieces together.
I dedicate my energy and talents to the cause of truth and to curb this deadly plague. We all have propensity to sin and weaknesses or tendencies which do not serve us as individuals nor as a community. Same sex attraction is one of them for some few individuals; some say 3- others as much as 10% but that does not mean that they must follow that tendency if it is such. If I see a beautiful woman (other than my wife), the natural man might dwell on that, but I do not have to entertain nor let lustful thoughts consume me nor drive my actions. The brain is powerfully influenced by our God given will and good habits or bad can be forged like iron chains. That is why many prominent gay individuals are now former gay. There are a lot of dedicated people ready to reach out a hand. This page has a few. I haven’t spent a great deal of time following up on all these; I have my own resources to assist such an individual, but these links make it obvious that one can also come out of the dark closet to heterosexuality too. (remove spaces in links)
http://peoplespassions.org/
peoplesvoice/essays/ex.htm
I have spent the better part of 30 years as a volunteer Scout leader and have worked with a great number of boys. It is my observation that there are few youth that don’t at some point feel “different, pain of exclusion, ridicule and rejection.” That is part of growing up, but when homosexuality is a coercive force, individuals that could have otherwise developed healthy heterosexual orientation may be co-opted. This coercion takes place from astoundingly high levels of gay molestation; It is pressed upon the youth in your school sponsored coming-out events – and the ever present gratuitous injection of Gay in practically every movie nowadays - all driving to try and tell the BIG lie that its perfectly normal, a totally acceptable alternative and very common. BTW I can believe the 3% number – 10% maybe in Seattle.
Anyway, I had too much to answer in this reply – at my nearest opportunity we can take up my assertion that Tolerance as you practice it is Promotion. Another night.
Mr. Marquis wrote: "I am persuaded that there is a social trigger (all too often molestation and or some obsessive family situation) that skids the unfortunate youth in that path."
We do not that those who molest have more often been not been molested, or have been victims of an obsessive family situation, such as homophobia or severe judgment on styles of life not consistent with their own, usually strict religious, teachings.
We do know that those who commit suicide have often faced the same destructive intolerance.
We do not know - and your data does not show - that those traumatic events, or other traumatic events cause homosexuality.
My heart goes out to you for your family tragedy. It goes a ways to explain your fierce opposition to homosexuality. From the space of your pain, can you hold compassion for the families of young women who have been molested as children, even raped and killed by heterosexuals?? Molestation is abominable. It cuts across sexual orientation.
Tolerance is holding space for someone to investigate their own identity without duress. It is not promotion or invitation, other than to promote safety for that investigation.
Correction: Made a typo...!
We do know that those who molest have more often than not been molested, or have been victims of an obsessive family situation, such as homophobia or severe judgment on styles of life not consistent with their own, usually strict religious, teachings.
but neither should we have school sponsored coming out parties!
Interesting how anti-gay zealots always insist on exaggerating and distorting the issues which get them in such high dudgeon. So now we've gone from merely claiming to "disagree" with Day of Silence because gay people supposedly aren't harassed all that much (I think Lawrence King would disagree, or he would if he was still alive), to dishonestly misrepresenting it at as a "school sponsored coming out party".
Since Day of Silence is neither school-sponsored nor a coming out party, I'm not sure what this blatant lying is supposed to accomplish, beyond once again exposing the opposition as a bunch of over-wrought, dishonest bigots.
Just my opinion.
Oh, and I do hope no-one is taking "peoplesvoice's" completely fraudulent claims about molestation and suicide seriously. He clearly has issues there.
Elaine,
If you read Day of Silence's own documents they call this event a "protest".
We have to get our facts straight if we have any hope of coming to a common understanding. The hard data shows a direct massive link between being molested and becoming a homosexual. There is a corresponding massive link between being homosexual and molesting children/youth. Ironically there is also huge linkage even with lesbians having been molested by heterosexuals. The data and MANY homosexual publications confirm that the homosexual movement, if I can use that term, is hinged and fueled by targeting and abusing youth. There is huge underreporting due to unfortunate shame on the part of the abused. Tragically, many of the abused end up repeating the cycle. http://www.regent.edu/acad/schlaw/academics/lawreview/articles/14_2baldwin.PDF
Can you perceive the difference between a 10MPG truck and a 50MPG Prius?
If so then please don’t attempt to create some dismissing moral equivalency between heterosexual abusers and homosexual abusers. Both evil acts but the hard facts are that man for man the average homosexual is 10X more likely to be a child/youth abuser than the heterosexual guy. With statistics like that, who would you like to send your boy on a campout with? Hmmmm?
Like many a conservative, it takes a lot to wake the sleeping giant, but a whole lot of us were stirred from our slumber on this matter when we saw clearly teachers abuse their position to coerce class members. My own son was bullied by such a teacher and several young folks that I know well have detailed the coercive hostile liberal environment created by some of these wolves in teachers clothing.
But awake I am now and filled as Admiral Yamamoto said “with terrible resolve”. Terrible for those who would abuse these young ones and a terrible resolve against those who would promote and call good what God has clearly called evil and a smidgeon of common sense would label forbidden.
When I saw in scholarly journals and report after report what I had already personally observed - that to propagate homosexuality, the adult generation must prey upon the vulnerable youth, then I had to act. When I saw gay alliances promoting the destruction of the very basis of our civilization, I saw the need to act.
I thank you for your kind words, but let me point out that I am a man who has spent his life steeped in the scientific methods of my trade and do not make a graph out of a single data point – even if that data point is the tragic death of my own brother.
The overwhelming data shows homosexuality expressed and acted upon is largely induced by adults. I cant even begin to list the bucket of links to scholarly research that back this up but here is another that I captured and hosted on my site: http://peoplespassions.org/
peoplesvoice/essays/
Homosexuality_and_Child_Sexual_Abuse.htm
The Baldwin article concludes, “The circle of abuse is the tragic legacy of the attempts by homosexuals to legitimize having sex with boys. For too many boys it is already too late to protect them from those who took advantage of their need for love and attention. All too many later perpetrate the abuse by themselves engaging in the sexual abuse of boys. Only by exposing the lies, insincere denials, and deceptions -- including those wrapped in scholastic garb -- of those who prey sexually on children, can we hope to build a wall of protection around the helpless children among us.”
May, If these statistics of abuse in any way apply to any youth at Mt Si then CPS should investigate who their abuser was and put an end to the tragedy.
As for the "z" who likes to nit on words, some schools made headlines back east actually formally calling their rally a "coming out" party. I really don’t give a rip what someone at Mt calls their activity. If the effect is to promote this self and societal destructive behavior then it must not be encouraged in any way. In this case the principal lent his official public support. The school’s accommodation makes it a school co-sponsored activity regardless. Get it now “z”?
As for your lame “hope” that that no-one takes the sordid statistics I quote seriously, maybe you should pull you head out of the sand and read some of those references so you can at least participate in this discussion on the basis of facts.
If CoDE actually supported education they would seek to create a diverse and positive school environment that supported teachers...
they would work to improve the math scores at the High School...
they would promote the teaching of sex education so that young adults can make informed decisions...
they would announce when their meetings are and actually inform ALL who express interest rather than screening those who seek to join...
they would acknowledge that all religion is a belief and has no place in public schools...
they would stop hosting a website that is full of innuendo, does not promote open discussion or allow for discussion (it presents itself as truth when it is not)and would give any self respecting teacher pause before seeking employment in our district. A foundation of education is presenting both sides of an issue...
As for the Day of Silence it totally escapes me why granting students who choose to the opportunity to be silent during school, unless called upon, is so threatening. It must be hard to be silent all day, especially if one is challenged or taunted.
I would sure appreciate it if folks posted their names. Seems like taking a little personal responsibility is not a bad example to set, even if it subjects one to rather nasty personal attacks.
Mark Joselyn
A couple of more thoughts, for those of you who are listening:
If the issue of concern is a loss of educational /instructional time, please focus your effort to 'defend education' on the WASL. The WASL compromises weeks of school time that could be better spent, particularly during the two weeks the test is administered and classes with mixed grades are effectively canceled.
I also reject your unfounded claim that a 'majority' of parents are concerned about the Day of Silence (From the CoDE website: "The Day of Silence ... is of immediate concern for a majority of parents in Snoqualmie Valley"). You list 141 parent members of CoDE, assuming a ratio of 1.5 parents per student that's less than 100 families in a population of 1,300+ students.
Mark Joselyn
Mark Joselyn I love your responses and thinking.
I looked at the CoDE website and see they list the earth shattering news that two girls were supposedly kissing at school and some boys were egging them on. Listing that is so obviously an example of their anti gay bias. Have any boy/girl couples at school been "caught" kissing before? Personally I think any romantic public displays of affection at school are inappropriate but to single out the alleged actions of two girls is so biased and silly.
We have a war going on. We have an election coming up. Rising food and fuel costs are causing widespread food shortages in developing countries, housing prices are down, the economy is sagging, autism rates are up, the school bond did not pass. I think there are more pressing concerns than two girls who supposedly kissed at school.
Once the children leave Mt Si High School they will enter a world with issues that are much more pressing than two girls who might have kissed.
Let's prepare our kids for life in the real world.
I also totally agree that the WASL is a waste of time and resources. If the CoDE was really about defending education they would have been calling for their members to get out and vote for the school bonds and getting behind solving real educational issues like the WASL.
I wish the CoDE would rename themselves the Coalition to Bash Homosexuality. -Or the Coalition to Make Mountains Out of Molehills.- Or the Coalition of The Narrow Minded.
Personally, I have to wonder if they have a lot of Larry Craig types in their group. I am comfortable enough in my sexuality to not worry about two girls kissing.
My husband is man enough to be friends with "soft men" too and he does not imagine ripping their arms off to prove his manliness.
Most conservatives just want to be left alone to raise their kids in at least a neutral environment, but over the years culminating in the last couple of years liberals in the schools at all levels have become so emboldened, so obnoxious so abusive in lording their position over the students that finally the sleepy giant stirs.
Few people indeed want to risk the personal hostility and danger that I have risked in engaging some of you in this on line debate let alone showing up on the evening news. As things stand, the liberal fascists have won.
By creating a debate environment hostile to conservative views, they have virtually squelched dialog. By creating a hostile classroom environment, where students are intimidated for Pledging Allegiance to the flag, dunned in their grades and belittled directly when they dared speak up against the teacher’s Bush or Christian bashing monologs, they have duplicated mind control in the best tradition of communist/fascists dictatorships everywhere.
If you wonder why CODE, who likely sympathizes with me, keeps their distance and dialog to simply demanding neutrality, it is because of your hostility.
You have successfully created such a general state of hostility that conservatives fear for their lives and lively hood – so don’t worry about my facts. Facts mean nothing in the context of fascism. For a season, evil has triumphed.
Peoplesvoice
We have to get our facts straight if we have any hope of coming to a common understanding. The hard data shows a direct massive link between being molested and becoming a homosexual.
I think there is harder evidence of children being molested within fundamentalist MORMON homes than any link to Gays molesting kids. Hundreds of kids were saved from those sick MORMONS down in Texas just last week.
Religion causes far more sexual deviancy than two men or two women who are in love.
You people know nothing of love. You are hateful and downright evil!
Hi All,
I think attacking Mormons is wrong and the people molesting their children in Texas were not Mormons but an offshoot cult. I think many current Mormons are troubled by their actions. Let's make sure we do not attack faiths but actions.
By the way, I am not Mormon.
I am troubled though by some of the CoDE members who seem to be and seem to be so virulently anti gay. Mormons have many lovely children that could be peacemakers in high schools and support all children. Their parents involved in CoDE- a group that seems so ANTI gay students- is sad.
I have supported many Mormons in the community and their children so I wish they would support gay children who need allies. So many Mormon children seem to be natural leaders and if they stood up in support of ALL children it would make a huge difference.
Thanks Anonymous II; attacking ones religion for the possible acts of another group is the worst kind of character assassination - The kind of ad homonym attack resorted to when one has no real arguments to present. Apparently Anonymous 1 is having trouble dealing with my fact based arguments.
As for CoDE, you are really barking up the wrong tree. I am pretty confident that many CoDE members are very conservative and would sympathize with many of my positions – however – believe me, they simply want the school to stick with academics and not be the surrogate soldiers in these social and political debates. You should take comfort in the fact that they would have nothing to do with my agenda of education on the facts of homosexuality. You say that CoDE is anti gay – I can tell you that as an organization that is flat out false – Frustrating to me, but they have a very passive attitude – a passivity I do not share.
If these teachers hadn’t been attacking Christians and conservatives and egging on these in your face demonstrations, CoDE would never have existed.
I happen to know a Mt Si Mormon girl whose best school friends are in the leadership of this loathsome GSA. Mormons are the most tolerant folks on a personal level you are ever going to find, but that does not include embracing or acquiescing to the sin. “Love the sinner”, “hate the sin” would be a good way to describe appropriate Christian behavior. For some reason some in this pro-gay audience are having a difficult time understanding how one can do that. It is called Christ like love. Parents have to walk that road all the time. In this case, this GSA event is predicated on the assumption that homosexuality is harmless. I have already demonstrated that that is false. If you don’t care to examine the links I provided, do your own easy Google search. The day is plentiful – just be careful to mine for data – and don’t confuse hard data for editorializing and conclusions and I think you will perhaps begrudgingly conclude I have a point.
The best kind of friends are willing to say “I love you bro but where you are going is a dark place, come back to the light.”
Peoplesvoice says
"In this case, this GSA event is predicated on the assumption that homosexuality is harmless. "
Yup, now you understand. Many of us have done our research. Many of us have no interest in rehashing this same, tired argument because we're beyond it.
I had no idea that there were even people who still felt like you do around. That's the only lesson I've taken away from all of this.
Ahh That calcified attitude might make it difficult indeed to have any sort of converging dialog. If you are surprised that others have such ideas, you might expand your circle of friends and acquaintances to include those who don’t reinforce your existing notions. As to my “feelings,” they have nothing to do with the statistical research that I referenced that homosexuals were 10X more likely to also molest children, 4X more likely to kill themselves and significantly involved in the spread of aids( I gave no stat). Feelings don’t change the numbers. I gave you links to some of those research studies and other related subjects. I challenged the reader that a simple internet search will add more reinforcement.
In all this dialog on this blog and even in my poking around in Internet, I have not encountered a rebuttal on those facts. Oh, the internet will yield a host of Gay promoting articles using sophistry to encourage you to ignore this growing corpus of research, but I am not seeing any serious research showing conflicting STATISTICS on those 3 critical subjects. The data is so compelling and from so many official sources that the gay movement (unlike “anonymous”) has simply granted my point and is now floating the sophistry that pedophiles are pedophiles and gays are gays. ie change the language to protect the guilty. The fact is that men who express attraction to ‘male’ are 10x more likely to have sex with an underage minor than a man who expressed attraction to ‘female’.
If you want to answer my concern – consider this mental exercise: Since Gays (3-10% of the population) are already way overly represented to the tune of 30% of ALL molestations, what would happen if Gays were say 50% of the population (can anyone say “fall of the Roman Empire”?) Let me help the math handicapped – they would represent better than 99% or all molestations.
Anonymous claims “many of ‘us’ have done our research” – then do enlighten the blind; please! Otherwise why bother filling blog space with unsupported head-in-the-sand opinions. I do hope you are not still smoking as I hate to keep “rehashing” what you have already made up you mind about. RG Reynolds lied and tobacco will kill a lot of you. GSA and their host of liberal supporters also lie or at least are shamefully ignorant about the lifestyle that emerging scholarly research demonstrates will kill and harm. Funny, God came to that same conclusion a few thousand years ago.
Correction:
I meant “99% of all molestations”; should read R J Reynolds
peoplesvoice,
I don't suppose I can change your mind that being gay is a sinful lifestyle choice amenable to reversal by therapy and prayer, but I can acknowledge your points that seem to have some validity and help you feel heard, and I can make clear the position of those oppose you in good faith. You feel that liberal teachers under the pose of being open-minded actually seek to shut down debate on issues that are not settled for you. That's a valid concern. You think that issues of human sexuality are not well enough understood and that kids who are sexually abused by homosexuals may have their sexual identities and self-esteem irreparably harmed. And that's a very valid concern.
I'll share a personal experience of my own. A close friend of mine, when he was a teenager, was "groomed" by a homosexual scoutmaster, got into a sexual relationship with him (probably because he needed a father), felt terrible -- suicidal -- and reported the guy to the authorities. It turned out that the guy was a repeat offender with several homosexual rape convictions who had been excommunicated by the Mormon church.
The judge in the scoutmaster's case happened to be a friend of his and let him off with a one-month suspended sentence.
My friend, having given the law a chance and been egregiously let down, took the law into his own hands, killed the scoutmaster, and turned himself in. (No, I'm not making this up; it made big news in central Oregon in the mid eighties.)
This was a horribly tragic affair, from my perspective mostly because my gentle, confused friend was preyed upon by people in authority -- a scoutmaster, a judge, and later a DA who tried (and failed, thankfully) to get him charged as an adult for the murder. However, I draw very different conclusions from this story than you do from yours. What's implicated here is not homosexuality but sexual predation. Conflating the two is wrong. I am sorry my friend killed a sexual predator, but mostly because of what the murder did to my friend's own psyche. I have no sympathy for sexual predation, whether perpetrated by homosexuals or (as is far more common) by heterosexuals.
But another thing that's implicated here is homophobia. The scoutmaster who abused my friend was a married man with children and kept up the appearance of being a good, church-going Christian. The kind, moral out-of-the-close homosexuals I've worked with at Microsoft and other companies are appalled at what happened to my friend. An out gay person in a committed relationship is someone you can trust as much as anyone. When you take anyone and force them to repress their sexuality, when you deride their instincts as evil, you risk damaging them emotionally and having them express their sexuality in destructive ways. Most of the girls who got pregnant in my high school were the ones with bible-thumping parents who tried to keep them on short leashes. (The kids with permissive or apathetic parents got into serious trouble too. The ones who did best were instilled with strong values of consideration for other people and self-respect and were allowed to go out with their friends.)
I have known many gay people and all of those who were out of the closet in committed relationships and had a network of accepting straight and gay friends were well adjusted people and solid citizens. I'm sure there are exceptions. You cannot make categorical statements about a person's morality based on their sexual orientation.
There's another point I read as implicit in your letters that I think is valid, though misapplied. You feel that Christians are held in contempt by a lot of people on the Left. I think that too, and it's wrong but understandable. Understandable, because through their tedious, judgmental, and anti-scientific rantings, a great many Christians have alienated thinking people in this country. But disagreeing with your homophobic views is not an attack on Christianity, and it's appalling hubris that you would try to hijack the religion that way.
Jesus presented his followers with a simple test of their loyalty. He said, "Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me." Who are the least of your brothers? To a white bigot, it's a black person. To a heterosexual bigot, it's a gay person. That's your God. That's the challenge he presents you for membership in his club. You and Hutcherson, in attacking kids who have stood up for tolerance, do not look to me like Christians but the mob that yelled, "Crucify him!"
You use Christianity as a cover for your hatred of homosexuals and kids who would defend them, but it does not offer you that cover, just as it does not offer me cover to hate and despise you.
Anonymous,
We may yet be able to have a dialog. Thank you for your reasoned response. Well talk soon but not tonight.
peoplesvoice,
I'm glad you are receptive to my story and comments. I am very sorry about your brother and appreciate your outrage. I have heard many firsthand stories about AIDS and once watched a coworker decline from the disease in the early 90s, a gentle, chatty, extremely effeminate little man from the Philippines, and his suffering was out of proportion to any sin he could have committed. (I left that job before he died.)
My friend's story was happier. After serving his prison term, he got training as a plumber, met a nice girl, moved to another country, and raised a family.
I don't know if we have anything more to hash over. I did you the courtesy of checking out your website, and you have done some articulate, thoughtful writing there. I'm less impressed with the papers on homosexuality. I did some checking of my own, and found an article that challenges some of their sources:
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
I was surprised to see that the incidence of male-on-male abuse does seem out of proportion to the relative size of the homosexual population. However, the reasons for this can be endlessly debated. Many of these abusers of boys, as the UC Davis article notes, are heterosexual with adults (like my friend's abuser), and it is their fixation and regression that leads them to target the young in general, with boys happening to be accessible. (That creature Duncan in Idaho was a case in point. When a boy and girl fell into his clutches, he abused them both.)
In any case, this is about the psychology of child sex predators, not homosexuals. You cannot conflate the categories. A much better case can be made that heterosexual men pose the greatest physical threat, sexual and otherwise, to kids of both sexes.
And I should return to the point that the stated purpose of the Day of Silence is not apology for homosexuals but a show of solidarity with people who've been victimized because they're gay. The kids promoting this have their hearts in the right place.
Believe me, I hear you. I get loud and clear your need to give your brother a voice. Whatever sexual issues your brother struggled with, he was not to blame for being abused. You believe he sought love and instead got a sexual initiation that degraded and ultimately destroyed him. Your readers here get it, and those with any human feeling (most if not all of them) feel very bad indeed. You can forgive some for not wanting to believe you, but I believe you. You are heard.
You might say, "How dare they give voice to abused homosexuals when homosexuals abused my brother?" That's an understandable sentiment. But it's wrong. Cruel people abused your brother; that's all.
Initiate a day to recognize young victims of sexual violence, or raise money for those teeming thousands of children in Africa struggling with AIDS. Honor your brother on a different battlefield, with love, not animosity.
Peace.
1st thank you for the reference. Turns out I had already made a study of that link.
As that author attempts to find flaws in the mythologies of the many unfavorable studies, I find it useful to peruse the gay literature and note just how pervasive the Adult-Grooms-Youth theme is celebrated. Very telling indeed about how gays propagate.
To your note, I'm afraid you have gotten yourself caught between two shifting homosexual talking points. The old argument was heterosexuals are the bigger total pedophile problem and the new one that redefines pedophiles as a new form of sexuality. If I could distill your last missive it was “ homosexuals can’t be the source of male on male pedophilia because I'm going to redefine that kind of sex as ‘predator sex.’ Nevertheless, heterosexual men who molest children ARE pedophiles because I choose not to reclassify them.” Did I get that right?
I think I know were you are coming from on this. When the homosexual apologists were confronted with the 10X statistical correlation – the kind of numbers I have been kicking around, they were flummoxed – I’m sure its tough to defend the fact that 3% of the population commits 30% of the molestations - so what to do? Ahh, the logical extension of claiming “I was born homosexual so that makes it all right” was “ there is another class of human being that was also “born that way” called the “sexual predator”. Now that makes it all better– those guys can’t be homosexuals since we redefined them out of our population.
Playing with words wont change that almost 90% of pedophiles described themselves as homosexual or bisexual and that 25-75% of homosexuals surveyed had sex with underage boys. That means 1-3 out of every 4 self professed homosexuals have molested a minor!!!! Yikes.
From http://peoplespassions.org/ peoplesvoice/essays/ Homosexuality_and_Child_Sexual_Abuse.htm
"If a man is married and has sexual relations with boys, he's obviously a combination. To say he's heterosexual is an outrage. Who cares if a guy was married? If he's into molesting boys, that's homosexual behavior.
The evidence indicates that a high percentage of homosexuals and pedophiles were themselves sexually abused as children. Men who sexually molest boys all too often lead their victims into a life of homosexuality and pedophilia.
The Archives of Sexual Behavior reports: "One of the most salient findings of this study is that 46 percent of homosexual men and 22 percent of homosexual women reported having been molested by a person of the same gender. This contrasts to only 7 percent of heterosexual men and 1 percent of heterosexual women reporting having been molested by a person of the same gender.
This circle of abuse is the tragic legacy of the attempts by homosexuals to legitimize having sex with boys. For too many boys it is already too late to protect them from those who took advantage of their need for love and attention. All too many later perpetrate the abuse by themselves engaging in the sexual abuse of boys.
Only by exposing the lies, insincere denials, and deceptions--including those wrapped in scholastic garb--of those who prey sexually on children, can we hope to build a wall of protection around the helpless children among us."
Anonymous, Do you really think you can stick your finger in the AIDS dike – treat the symptoms and stem the flow of HIV without addressing the cause? Do you want an African sized epidemic to deal with here? I'm sure you care about the victims here at home – right here at Mt Si. Can we stop the cycle of abuse without recognizing that the victims often turn victimizer?
We must not bury our heads in the sand. I am about stopping the cause. If there are youth at Mt Si acting out as homosexuals, there is a high probability that that person has already been molested and needs our help and outreach – not gasoline to the flames.
I sense and appreciate your compassion for troubled youth. I share that compassion, and commit my efforts here and now to stopping the cycle of abuse here in our town that takes vulnerable youth and troubles them more with this plague.
I have no animosity for these victims, no condemnation of these young ones. I have spent the better part of my life improving the lives of our communities youth and would never tolerate condemnation of individuals but that does not mean we hide the facts. Sometimes truth can be hard to receive, but surely only the truth will set them free.
Peace to you,
PeoplesVoice
P-Voice
We must not bury our heads in the sand. I am about stopping the cause. If there are youth at Mt Si acting out as homosexuals, there is a high probability that that person has already been molested and needs our help and outreach – not gasoline to the flames.
You are one sick and deluded individual!
I was NEVER molested, how do you explain that you sick F**K?
Peoplesvoice,
That last was another anonymous. My name's Bob, and I'm a straight guy with a family. I understand your position, but I think your conclusions are wrong, and this gay person's last post cuts to the heart of the issue (leaving aside he made it in anger, but you'd be angry too if someone condemned you for being straight). You can't conflate homosexuality and child abuse. Most homosexuals have not been abused nor are they abusers.
You believe a tolerant society will lead sexually ambivalent -- or maybe even straight -- youth into homosexuality. I've read the literature, and your figures do not look right to me.
Even if your figures were, your crusade is hopeless. You will spread nothing but darkness by it. You will not "convert" anyone away from their sexual orientation, and you will merely reinforce the status-quo atmosphere of hatred and intimidation for anyone who _might_ be homosexual. Straight kids who happen to be small or introverted or merely smart get hassled and beat up in our schools all the time because of this paranoid fear of homosexuality.
We live in a free society. We have laws against child abuse and sexual harassment and assault. That's enough. Homosexuality is not something a cabal of liberals got together and invented thousands of years ago. In trying to stamp it out, you will merely hurt people. This attitude of yours discourages dialog in families who have homosexual members, making them alienated and suicidal and leading them into risky relationships. It makes predators more devious ("if you tell your Bible-thumping family what you did, they won't respect you anymore"), and alienates the good homosexual people who find child abuse abhorrent and would cooperate with you to confront it. Openness, tolerance, dialog, sexual faithfulness, self-respect, vigilance -- these are the only ways forward.
Peace.
Dear Anonymous (the foul mouth one),
I am glad to hear that as a youth you never had sex with an adult – according to quite a few studies – that puts you in a fortunate minority. Since those studies match my own experience and comes from numerous government and university studies, I tend to believe them.
You may not at this point see the need to take a different direction in life, but it is possible. Many well known fixtures in the homosexual community have. I just started this page, but you’ll get the point http://peoplespassions.org/
peoplesvoice/essays/ex.htm
To you Bob,
Thank you for carrying on a reasoned debate. Clearly you have given this topic a great deal of thought and I appreciate your insights and sensitivities. I have a much more positive attitude as to where this can go than you do. In particular, I’d have to differ from your gloom prediction that “no one can be converted” . This IS the key falsehood that keeps people down - that change is not possible. The small sampling on my Web post proves otherwise. Its most ironic that homosexual apologists think that coming out is a one way road.
There are two angles – one is public policy. That is hard hitting and based on the dark statistical correlations I have addressed at length. Homosexuality apologists know those numbers are solid so like a good theologian dedicated to their faith, they side step it as you did with this “can’t conflate” nonsense. Sorry, the correlation is too obvious dismiss. The numbers I read in study after study show around 50% (often more) of individuals declaring same sex attraction were also sexually exploited as a minor and of those who are convicted abusers, most of them were themselves abused. This is quite solid. You might as well argue that smoking is not related to cancer because not all cancer patients smoke. Not buying it Bob. Now enough about public policy.
The other angle is personal. Dealing with individuals requires another tact; one that encourages those coerced into the fad of homosexuality and lesbianism to come out of the closet. After all if those who were raised hetro- can come out to homosexuality – why be so opposed to publicly opening the door of possibility to return to or come out to heterosexuality? This is CHOICE in the best possible light not darkness. The homosexual movement does not want that choice to be openly discussed. I intent to try and change that, not by damning them , but by positive outreach.
Lastly, it is a most embarrassing thing to acknowledge that you were exploited/abused. Only after decades of expanding openness are women more likely now to confront this. Boys especially are loath indeed to confront that event and it hangs with them like a shadow – By bringing this very common abuse element to the foreground it can free those so damaged. They can come to know that they were victimized and that does not mean their sexuality is defined by that abuse/exploitation.
This is one of the last big cycles of abuse that we as a society need to address, We have been “hear no evil, see no evil” regarding the Man-youth homosexual culture.
If AIDS were any other disease, the individuals would be tracked and managed by standard epidemiological procedures to end the plague, but the homosexual lobby has apposed that because it would be bad publicity. Likewise you don’t want this information seeing the light of day – you say this information will hurt people – Well how about Kill people Bob, like my brother, Like your Friends tragedy, what part of hurt isn’t included in DEAD.
This is not attitude, it is truth, What shocks you is that someone in your neighborhood is finally saying the obvious. The very obvious inconvenient truth.
Another fundamental flaw in your closing is confusing inalienable identity with homosexual behavior. Behavior and even attractions are modifiable behaviors. This is fact not opinion. Suicide is correlated to homosexual behavior – not attitude and while you might like to blame it on shunning, that gay suicide correlation is just as prominent in widespread homosexual promoting, decadent Holland as it is in our own society.
Heck, I’d be in jail in Holland for even having this conversation and it hasn’t changed anything. That is because “wickedness never was happiness” and it never will be regardless of how it is sugar coated – acting on same sex impulses is inherently a bitter pill. When Jesus showed his love and forgiveness to the Woman caught in adultery, his oft suppressed follow on comment – “Go and sin no more” is all the more important.
You implied that “good” people who practice homosexuality would not want to cooperate in eradicating child abusers/youth exploiters in their ranks if I maintained such a spotlight – I have news for you –½ of those expressing same sex attraction have already been abused – but they are hiding most of their abusers right now. And believe the statistics Bob, same sex attracted pedophiles are devious. That is why the Boy Scouts has had to oust almost 2000 from their ranks. It is why almost ½ the girl Scout leaders are lesbians and now they have “coming out” parties. It is why Man-Boy Love associations dot the nation and why homosexuals have infiltrated and stacked the leadership of the American Psychology Association. – Of yes devious indeed but shedding light is hardly going to make them more so.
We need to break the barrier to outing their abusers and in so doing begin the healing process for those who want to change their behavior and inclinations.
This is the best recipe for breaking this cycle. With some expansion, let me express my heart felt agreement with each of your concluding points.
Openness - to modify opinions based on emerging facts however inconvenient
Tolerance - for the individuals so affected
Dialog - that differentiates individuals from statistics and policy
Sexual Faithfulness - for adults (abstinence for youth)
Self Respect - based on your inherent worth as a child of God and bolstered by purity of actions
Vigilance - that any who might harm or exploit these young ones might be restrained and exposed
That the cycle of abuse might stop – here and now.
PeoplesVoice
Peoplesvoice
Allow me to play devils advocate here.
Let's assume that geneticists are correct and that homosexuality is a genetic predisposition as opposed to a choice as you claim.
How does this change your views, or does it?
How about individuals born with both sets of sex organs, how do you classify this group?
Your premise that homosexuality is a choice can certainly be disputed.
You draw the conclusion that if it is a choice, another less abhorrent choice should be made.
I would argue that one's facade of normalcy or morality does not represent the sexual deviancy an individual may be hiding. in addition, deviancy can be subjective. For example, I believe the Mormons raping teenage girls they call their 'wives' is a form of deviancy. Priests who malest children are deviant. Evangelicals who preach against that which they practice secretly are deviants.
I don't see a man or woman expressing love for the same sex as deviant behaviour. Your only claim to this stems from the bible. Which I will remind you also calls for the subjugation of women and the legal precedence of slavery.
So if this is your only claim to support this 'law of God' I strongly suggest you get women to be silent as God commands and lobby to repeal the 24th ammendment.
In addition to the 13th, 14th and 15th ammendments that is.
And why women can vote is byond me, certainly NOT God's wish. REPEAL THE 19th Ammendment!
"Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
(Leviticus 25:45-46)
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
(Leviticus 25:44-46)
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
(Luke 12:47-48)
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
(I Corinthians 14:34-35)
"I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
(I Corinthians 11:3)
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."
(Colossians 3:18)
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
(I Timothy 2:11-15)
Dear Anonymous,
It seems everyone is looking for a gene these days to blame their behavior on. The cancer gene, the alcoholic gene, the gay gene – and this will make atheists pleased – a God gene.
I am of the opinion that man is unique in his ability to rise above his environment and even the environment of this own genetic makeup. My own children likely have the American Indian genetic tendency towards alcoholism, but they choose to avoid that self destructive behavior.
Our brains chemistry itself can be self modulated. I am convinced by the science that man need not be a victim of his circumstances. That is our unique gift.
I would readily agree that there may well be tendencies that when nurtured or exploited can grow to the self destructive behavior we have been discussing, It is also clearly a choice which have been handily demonstrated by studies of sexuality in foster and adopted children. Children cared for by individuals practicing homosexual behaviors are much more likely to practice the behavior themselves. They are also much more likely to be promiscuous – a homosexual trait that is tied to the HIV plague in their population. The massive explosion of lesbian behavior in colleges underscores those other studies tying homosexual behavior to nurture as well as nature.
So bottom line, I don’t give a rip why you drink, it’s very likely to become a self destructive behavior – same story with practicing homosexuality.
I really don’t know where you are going with all the Bible stuff and before you skew this reasoned discussion too far a field, Mormons have nothing to do with that odd religious group in Texas; no more than the Catholics and the Methodists. Please keep your comments germane and avoid the logical fallacies of personal attacks (Ad Hominem. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/). This discussion has been long enough - too long by my estimation but I have only stayed with it so far because Bob was sharing keen insights and reasoned thought provoking argument that respect my person and motivations. Your sophomoric arguments will weary me quickly of any interest.
I'm not much of and Old Testament scholar, but a wider read of that section and more traditional translations show that the discussion is about bond or contract servants – something like the traffic in indentured servants in our own colonial times not captured slaves; Sorry, your references are so mangled that I had trouble finding each – You might crack ‘Ol Dusty more often if you want to be a decent Bible thumper. As for the women quotes– you have to keep the cultural context in mind – probably suitable advice in the deeply oppressive society that Christianity was cast in, but not hardly appropriate in today’s context.
Look Mr. Anonymous, that was 2000+ years ago. If God wants to comment on today’s problems, I’ll be happy to listen, would you? But unless you and I are going to climb the mountain together to hear his word together, why don’t we just stick the facts on the table huh? So far I have not used God in any arguments to date.
I will add this comment, if we are just chemical reactions then if it all were to blow away tomorrow, none of it – neither our arguments nor ourselves mean anything. Logically even this very moment means nothing and is just one whale of an electro chemical complex. Nothing more. Neither ourselves nor or progeny mean anything- just more bots – electrochemical reactions . Chew on that depressing thought! What, not too tasty?
I don’t know if you can absorb a math proof to this end but that sad conclusion is easy to demonstrate. Let me know and I’ll publish a paper on that topic.
So before you trash religion, do keep in mind that it is the only logical basis for civility of any kind. If you think a lot of wars were caused by religion, truly, without it the whole earth from one corner to the next would be violent continually and this conversation would more likely be settled with an AK than this dialog. Law of the jungle - one Columbine after another.
Religion teaches us that we are more than one night stands and that everything we do and even think has eternal import. If you can think of ANY reason whatsoever to live beyond that context DO tell. I'm all ears.
PeoplesVoice
1 John 3:15-16 (The Message)
14-15The way we know we've been transferred from death to life is that we love our brothers and sisters. Anyone who doesn't love is as good as dead. Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know very well that eternal life and murder don't go together.
16-17This is how we've come to understand and experience love: Christ sacrificed his life for us. This is why we ought to live sacrificially for our fellow believers, and not just be out for ourselves. If you see some brother or sister in need and have the means to do something about it but turn a cold shoulder and do nothing, what happens to God's love? It disappears. And you made it disappear.
Now it is very easy to contact with doctor.
Now it is very easy to contact with doctor.
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